From the Necromancer gem reveals, referring to Meat Shield + Feeding Frenzy:

'

If minions are both Aggressive and Defensive, those effects cancel out, returning the minions to their original behaviour. All other bonuses from [Feeding Frenzy and Meat Shield] still apply.

This is not the case. Minions supported by both of these gems are ONLY defensive. They do not go where you cast, nor do they attack anything that isn't close to you. Tested with both Animate Guardian and Zombies. Removing both returns them to their default AI.
(actually not sure if I prefer it like this or not, honestly...)

Current IGN: twitchtvTheuberelite
http://twitch.tv/theuberelite - I stream sometimes.

Last edited by TheuberClips on Sep 12, 2019, 7:41:54 AM

Posted by
TheuberClips
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:31:35 AM

I was curious as to how exactly this worked, I did a little (non-empirical) testing, attempting to figure out why these two do not cancel out exactly. Warning for wall of text:
->Minions follow your cursor when you attack, move, or cast a spell. Instant spells and warcries do not work. Moving your cursor while not issuing a command will not cause the minions to move, hanging around where you last issued a command. Almost like an invisible beacon where you last clicked.
->Minions will attack enemies within an area around this beacon. This area seems to increase with feeding frenzy, and decrease with meat shield support. This range is probably the aggro range talked about. Having both returns the aggro range to original.
->If the minions find themselves outside the beacon radius, they will move to be inside the beacon radius. This is how you get minions to move with you. If there is an enemy along the path to the beacon, they will not attack it unless it is inside the aggro radius of the beacon.
-> If there is an enemy inside the beacon aggro range and the minion is outside it, the minion will attack straightaway, rather than running to the beacon and then attacking (needs further testing).
->SRS and summon skeletons probably work without these beacons in mind, as when spawned they either aggro enemies or end up just standing there. This is probably the reason as to why the aggro range of skeletons is larger than the feeding frenzy aggro range; because, if it wasn't, they would literally just stand there once anything nearby was dead.
-> If minions are really far away from you, they will do either one of two things. Regular minions will teleport to your position. SRS and Skeletons will despawn.
->The big thing that meat shield does is that this beacon is placed at your feet for attacks or spells, and your cursor for move only. Meat shield minions will still run toward this beacon for move commands, and potentially run in front of you if they are much faster than you. However, they will no longer move for anything else. If you run and then attack, this movement beacon is placed at your feet and your meat shield minions return to you.
-> beside altering the aggro range, Feeding Frenzy does not change anything regarding minion behavior.
-> thus, if you use both meat shield and feeding frenzy, the aggro range is returned to normal, but the beacon is at your feet for any attacks or spells.
The wording about this in https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2623295 makes it seem as if these effects cancel each other out perfectly, but they don't.
I used meat shield support with my zombies while using cyclone in my current build. The zombies, supported by meat shield, will just be following my feet. Since the zombies only moved once they got out of radius, it results in the minions always trailing behind me. Without meat shield, however, the minions just followed the cursor while I was using cyclone.
While I was testing, I figured out that there is a way to have the effects cancel out. The game seems to always keep track of where you are standing and where you are attacking while using an attack or spell. Using some simple vector mathematics, you can calculate a point between where you are standing and attacking, and send minions there instead. They will literally stand between you and where you are attacking, as a meat shield. Hell, with feeding frenzy support, you can have the minions overshoot where you are attacking. If you then equip both of these, you can have the changes to minions locations cancel out, and return their behavior to normal.

Posted by
wazzupdj
on Sep 15, 2019, 8:49:20 PM

'

From the Necromancer gem reveals, referring to Meat Shield + Feeding Frenzy:

'

If minions are both Aggressive and Defensive, those effects cancel out, returning the minions to their original behaviour. All other bonuses from [Feeding Frenzy and Meat Shield] still apply.

This is not the case. Minions supported by both of these gems are ONLY defensive. They do not go where you cast, nor do they attack anything that isn't close to you. Tested with both Animate Guardian and Zombies. Removing both returns them to their default AI.
(actually not sure if I prefer it like this or not, honestly...)

Hey there,
Thank you for the report.
This is indeed bugged, it has been fixed and will be included in a future patch.
Sorry for the trouble!

Posted by
YOLANDI_GGG
on Sep 16, 2019, 12:20:23 AM

'

'

'

Yea, the type of damage you deal has no effect on what Saquawal's Nest does for the build. It will still be BiS. But remember to change the links, Maim loses its bonus if you convert. Other gems might be better then. Grave Intentions becomes a good passive too. It is really bad for pure phys zombies.

Maim loses its bonus when I convert, for the armour or the Tirad Grip Gloves?
What does Grave Intentions do? The poe.gamepedia website is down for me somehow.

Maim does make enemies take more physical damage. And Grave Intentions is a passive node that gives a chance to get unholy might. Pretty bad for pure phys zombies, as you use Brutality with them to get the highest damage. But an ok boost for conversion zombies.

So my 6 Link after getting the triad glove with 4 white sockets will be:
zombies
feeding frenzy
multistrike
melee physical
ruthless
empower 4/maim
???

Posted by
Shinohiko
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:01:54 PM

'

Yea, and you have level 23 Zombies and I have level 30 Zombies. And PoB tells me that means more than double the damage. If we take into account that you would use a different support instead of Empower it comes out at around 40% difference. And Zombies are what deal damage in this build not spectres, golems or skellies. So noone cares about them having +2. Well, we care for the life they gain from higher levels. Also, level 23 Zombies will be dieing A LOT in the endgame.
I think you HUGELY underestimate how much damage Zombies gain from levels.

Why would I have only level 23 Zombies?
21 Raise Zombie
+2 Staff
+2 Ascendancy
+3 level 4 Empower
+2 Support gems enchant (Empower)
Thats level 30 Zombies just like you. Except now I also have +2 on all my other minions, offerings and Auras.
As for Skellies that actually outdamage Zombies on a 1 to 1 basis. Always have.

Last edited by Max_zero on Sep 12, 2019, 6:04:59 PM

Posted by
Max_zero
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:03:20 PM

edit

Last edited by Kaegyn on Sep 12, 2019, 6:43:20 PM

Posted by
Kaegyn
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:10:00 PM

'

So what is everybody using as their curse? I know we are using Animate Guardian to apply Vulnerability on hit, but he counts as a seperate player, so we still have another curse to either self cast or get from our minions.
I changed my Spectre setup to 2xCarnage Chieftain, 1xHost Chieftain and 1xDiabolist. And man, that Diabolist is spamming Enfeeble all over the screen like its his favorite thing ever. And the effect is actually insane, I get hit A LOT less and when I get hit it hurts a lot less too. So I would definitely recommend getting a Diabolist as the 4th Spectre.
Did I miss it in the opening post? Or did OP not talk at all about what curse he uses?

Well for me I’m simply not cursing! Really though, either go exclusively with AG curse or with a Spectre curse since they will cancel each other out. I mentioned earlier that it’s possible for AG to double curse with corrupted Oskarm (expensive) or Asenath’s Gentle Touch (very expensive). Both methods would probably be cheapest by far to buy and corrupt yourself.
I also think this should work: Give the AG +1 curse limit but have him only curse once. Using a curse Spectre would override the AG’s curse, but the very next AG’s attack should reapply his curse due to his +1 limit. The AG can have up to +2 curses, which would allow the same process using what I mentioned above.
Qlida, however, dropped his curse Spectre due to its movement speed.

PoE Tool Compilation
- https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2703056
Scamware! Protect Yourself From the Dark Side
- https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2763480

Posted by
Aldonés
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:12:03 PM

'

'

The problem is that if you're using vuln gloves on your AG, that's all the curses your minions can cast. They don't respect the +1 curse from passive tree. So diabolist is useless :D.

Yea, you laugh while spreading bullshit, thinking you are clever and I am stupid... AG is a seperate entity from the player. He basically counts a second player. He has his own curse limit of 1. The player, and his direct minions, has a totally seperate curse limit of 1. Maybe get some VERY basic summoner information before proceeding to laugh at people? I mean, it is in the OP, it is in the poe wiki, if you had read anything at all you should know this.
Direct quote from the wiki:

'

The Guardian does not share your max amount of curses you can apply to enemies, and therefore functions as a player with the default curse limit when applying curses (through corrupted gloves, for example).

I love helping new players and answering questions, as seen on the last 10 pages here, but things like this really grind my gears.

I laugh because I added a :D which you also did while flaming the guy who made this thread for not having diabolist on the list, despite him having that info first and then removing it? I'm sorry, I don't understand. He actually has 'NOTE! The Guardian does not share your max amount of curses you can apply to enemies, and therefore functions as a player with the default curse limit when applying curses (through corrupted gloves, for example). - Quoted from Path of exile wiki!'
Way earlier in the thread people actually tested using AG and diabolist and said it didn't work. Now you come in and say it works. Show me it working I guess? We have conflicting data.

Posted by
Silverpion
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:29:42 PM

I'm in awe at some of the gear y'all have already. I'm level 87 and only just recently was able to afford my first Efficient Training jewel. I still need probably 10 exalts worth of gear. How is everyone farming their gear so fast??

Posted by
Kronikle
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:44:21 PM

'

I'm in awe at some of the gear y'all have already. I'm level 87 and only just recently was able to afford my first Efficient Training jewel. I still need probably 10 exalts worth of gear. How is everyone farming their gear so fast??

use poe profile and see
http://poe-profile.info/profile/Qlidascope?
all play 5 link weapon and 5 link armour
its all y need to t15 map

Posted by
101zombi101
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:50:42 PM

'

'

'

The problem is that if you're using vuln gloves on your AG, that's all the curses your minions can cast. They don't respect the +1 curse from passive tree. So diabolist is useless :D.

Yea, you laugh while spreading bullshit, thinking you are clever and I am stupid... AG is a seperate entity from the player. He basically counts a second player. He has his own curse limit of 1. The player, and his direct minions, has a totally seperate curse limit of 1. Maybe get some VERY basic summoner information before proceeding to laugh at people? I mean, it is in the OP, it is in the poe wiki, if you had read anything at all you should know this.
Direct quote from the wiki:

'

The Guardian does not share your max amount of curses you can apply to enemies, and therefore functions as a player with the default curse limit when applying curses (through corrupted gloves, for example).

I love helping new players and answering questions, as seen on the last 10 pages here, but things like this really grind my gears.

I laugh because I added a :D which you also did while flaming the guy who made this thread for not having diabolist on the list, despite him having that info first and then removing it? I'm sorry, I don't understand. He actually has 'NOTE! The Guardian does not share your max amount of curses you can apply to enemies, and therefore functions as a player with the default curse limit when applying curses (through corrupted gloves, for example). - Quoted from Path of exile wiki!'
Way earlier in the thread people actually tested using AG and diabolist and said it didn't work. Now you come in and say it works. Show me it working I guess? We have conflicting data.

The Guardian entry is a little strangely worded but what it means is that your curse limit increases does not apply to the AG and vice versa. So basically if you have a Curse limit of 2 and the AG has a Curse limit of 2 then each of you can apply two Curses but the target you attack still only has a Curse limit of 2 not 4.
You can easily test this by giving your AG 1 Curse and yourself 1 Curse and the Curses won't stack.
If you read the Curse entry on PoE wiki it explains how you can't even stack Curses between players if there is no Curse limit increase.

Posted by
Max_zero
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:59:06 PM

'

'

I'm in awe at some of the gear y'all have already. I'm level 87 and only just recently was able to afford my first Efficient Training jewel. I still need probably 10 exalts worth of gear. How is everyone farming their gear so fast??

use poe profile and see
http://poe-profile.info/profile/Qlidascope?
all play 5 link weapon and 5 link armour
its all y need to t15 map

4 White Socket Triad Grip = 3-4 exalt
Astramentis = 1 exalt (+ 0.75 exalt oils needed for Death Attunement)
2 Efficient Training Jewels = 2-2.5 exalt
The Baron = 0.5-1 exalt
Aspect of the Avian ring with all those juicy resists = 1 exalt
I can likely still do T15 maps with my shit gear, but I'm still in awe at how well geared a lot of you are already, especially those with 6 link Saqawal's Nests.

Posted by
Kronikle
on Sep 12, 2019, 6:59:41 PM

The way I see it is even if you have 2 curses on your character, every time your ag hits it will override the curse from your spectre instead of adding +1. If the AG has two curse limit then yeah, sure. If it's wrong then I'd be happy to learn about it.
Oops @Max_zero I missed your post while typing this, but yeah that was what I thought as well.

Last edited by Silverpion on Sep 12, 2019, 7:43:57 PM

Posted by
Silverpion
on Sep 12, 2019, 7:12:43 PM